“recall them ever having been 22 23 trained by anybody, in any sense. Mr. Wides. Or communications in general? 24 Mr. Sarno. Now communications generally, I cannot say that. 25 NY 50955 DocId: 32202440 Page 25 TOP SECRET”
“away on a trip. 22 Mr. Wides. But your understanding was 'it involved 23 personnel? 24 Mr. Sarno. This individual was involved in it. 25 Mr. Wides. And what did you understand had been the HW 50955 DocId: 32202440 Page 43 TOP SECRET”
“22 Mr Sarno. In which AMOIS, participated? No, sir. 23 Mr. Wides. working with the FBI". 24 Mr. Sarno. The FBI occasionally would ask for the 25 services of one of the but it was mainly not to surveil HW 50955 DocId: 32 202440 Page 18 TA D CE-DET”
“21 cable directly to New York with info to Washington. 22 Mr. Wides. Were you ever told that communications had 23 been made to New York? You said before 24 Mr. Sarno. Yes, I was told, because I think there may have 25 HW 50955 DocId:32 202440 Page 39 TOD SECEET”
“Sarno. was the Chief. 25 Mr. Wides. And you had contact with Mr. Phillips then? HW 50955 DocId: 32202440 Page.4 TOP SECRET”
“I have tried 19 20 quite carefully to tell, you my recollection. Mr. Smothers. We are merely trying now to establish 21 22 those relationships so that when we get the point in the 0 ‘7 do record there is some question regarding the nature of the recollection that mi”
“have suggested to the Committeelthat your statements given to the CIA in 1964 cannot be considered NW 50955 DocId: 32277209 Page 81 TOP SECRET”
“20 Mr. Wides. I don’t mean a specific one. 21 Mr. Sarno. I don't recall ever giving them any assignments. 22 Mr. Wides. I'm not talking about assignments, I'm I) 23 talking about whether you're aware of their conducting — 24 Mr. Sarno. As I say, I do not recall them cond”
“he had no recollection of a conversation 21 with you where he was present, and you discussed assassination 22 of a double agent, or the planning for such a mission with 23 Colonel Pash and himself. 24 Do you, even having heard his testimony, still have a 25 clear recoll”
“official confirmation of the underlying information. Standing by itself, Agee's book can be dismissed by the Agency as speculation, and do not compromise CIA's ability to keep the information classified.Scelso's - testimony, however, amounts to official confirmation of Agee'”
“all 22 of his partisans in the operationa that the Agency was conducting. 23 ■Afardl to 00g wcolooin msl 1689 the the counter- 24 **,* intelligence or espionage aspect, which is not my function, but 25 NW 50955 DocId: 32102418 Page 7 TOP SECRET”
“there 19 fore I am.trying to restrict myself to those things that I have 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, O.C. 20003 20 ■personal knowledge of. In other words, that is the kind of 21 thing that I think you should talk to, you know, those’ who were 22 involved directl”
“ur EVAEI 48 1 CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC 2 I, Alfred Joseph LaFrance, the officer before whom the 3 ! foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the 4 witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing deposition 5 was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of sai”
“ashington. D .C . 20003 19 very much, but that was the purpose of the call. Mr. Smothers. And it it your testimony that your first 20 exposure to the documentary evidence beyond these recollections 21 was when either the Rockefeller Commission staff or this 22 staff sho”
“in the Central Intelligence Agency, either in the records or in the mind of any of the individuals, that there was any contact had or even contemplated. with him. 121”
“you said in your testimony American defection was 22 very rare. All the more reason, if it only happens once every. year or a couple of times a year, or three times between '56 • 13 I 24 and ‘59, it is totally incredible to me that he would not have 25 been interrogated.”
“payroll 20- in the sense of employees, they were regularly paid agents, 21 informants? 22 Mr. Sarno. They were given funds by 2. which 23 obviously were authorized for sort of like operational expenses. 24 Mr. Wides. Excuse me. You're talking about when they 25 were i”
“indicates that. 21 22 Mr. Schwarz. And is it further so that one of the CIA 23 officers who first met Q. J. Win(50!" Slgubssygrouucg 0 wed©n 24 ixlp -.. overSe88 to find safeeragkers and.docomment suppliers? each-ten-sou-eneie 1(B) 25 Mr. Colby. Yes, that is what it says”
“23 : offices. I was out at an agent meeting when I heard about the 25 i assassination and I came back to the Embassy and went upstairs; 9241As WBias toe « • Don ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY NW 50955 DocId: 32277214 Page 59”
“specific individual; and 21!; second, that there should be a decision to move against an 22 individual. 23 Being satisfied that these two things were not happen- 24 ing - - and I am now giving you a reconstruction rather than 25 a precise recollection — I am confident t”
“the record and the exhibit evidence citing the inference that it was not. There 20 >. is an abundance of both, to be frank with you. So that we 4 1 0 F irs t S treet, S.E., Washil 21 can lay them down side by side and make our own separate 22 23 judgment. © Do I u”
“come to me. You are asking me things that 23 happened, you know, in 1962. As I have told you, I have been 24 in a lot of places. 25 Anyway, when we put in a request for a trace on the source TOP SECRET HWW”
“America, 22 l your testimony today is that you do not know whether the Cuban j 23 n operations case officers reviewed all of the transcripts? 49 i Mr. Shaw. I do not think that, the prefacing was necessary. 25 1 The latter part of that, in which you asked me if I am aware”
“ch 18 SE KEl Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 1 A Sure. 2 : 2 I am sorry we had to take so much of your time. o - A That is all right. Q Thank you again. (Whereupon, at 3:35 o’clock p.m., the taking of the 6 deposition was concluded.) 7 8 , 9 10 11 ! 12 i W ARD a ”
“wearing the two bats’, the DCI will still 1 really be representing the Agency vis a vis their particular O9 agencies like MSA and the others. 93 That’s the choice. 04 Mr. Sideno a. ly Chad man: i 6 I could just note for 25 the record that of the vihnsses ho testified be”
“did so calmly and without .objections. In one or two instances he remarked chat his statements were presented in such a manner as to make them 7 0001279 TS No. 197124 Top Secret Copy 10”
“through two 22 ! or three countries, finally wound up in Havana. 23■ You referred to some extra-legal activities. 24 A Yes. That is what I was trying to think of, what 25 we did. I just can't think -- I remember this was on one of NW 50955 DocId:32203851 Page 28”
“. 2 0 0 0 3 19 be in our Technical Services Division, which, if he was, he 20 would know everything, or could get into everything. 21 I didn't tell him that. Ya 22 In fact, I expressed little or no interest in his source 23 other than asking him a few questions, is he ”
“plans, I prepared 22 cables that went to Mr. Dearborn focussing on the areas that 430 Post Street, 23 you are interested in, and I was with him every day on something 24 connected with Latin America. 25 Mr. Schwarz. Without your turning to the documentary TOP SECRET I”
“still have no direct recollection of the discussions which they memorialize. I do not recall any discussion of any assassination plan connected to the United States government during the entire course of my NW 50955 5 DocId:32423566 Page 31 4”
“24 A I simply overheard it, that is right. J I’ ll' 25: Q And who were the parties to the conversation you over- photocopy from SECRET Gerald Ford Library NW 50955 DocId: 32275518 Page 11”
“th 18 SECKET Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 A Sure. 2 2 I am sorry we had to take so much of your time. o1 A That is all right. 4 ; Thank you again. 5 ! (Whereupon, at 3:35 o’clock p.m., the taking of the 6 1 11 deposition was concluded.) J 7 11■ 8 9 10 ! 11i 12”
“this 19 type of negotiation while other covert operations were happening, 20 although it could conceivably have happened. 21 The Chairman. If it did happen, what we are in search of 22 is an explanation. 23 I think your testimony is helpful. Certain inferences 24 can ”
“after the man has settled down for two or three days and become composed. We do it in the privacy of our office or wherever he may be, or in his own home or apartment. We interviewed him twice in regard to that angle that we were looking for. We had no indication at this time”
“few 20 of us, probably myself and Mr. Pionzio, and Mr. Broe and Mr. 21 Karamessines, and maybe Mr. Flannery, — no, I guess not, but 22 .I do remember thatmeeting going up there and saying, if there 23 ever was a chance, it is now finished, and somebody has got to 24 say ”
“no other 21 MMNRS, people to your knowledge received any surveillance 22 training, is that your testimony? 23 Mr. Sarno. That is true, sir. 0 24 Mr. Wides. What about picks and locks? 25 Mr. Sarno. Nobody. HW 50955 DocId: 32 202440 Page 23 TAD CECDET”
“by case, whatever concerns me, my 13 biography, my work, whatever cases I knew, whatever cases I 24 was involved, all questions were raised by 20, 30 times each 25 case,, when it was reevaluation of all information given by me. HW 50955 1 DocId: 32277209 Page 82 TOP SECR”
“24 A I simply overheard it, that is right. 25! And who were the parties to the conversation you over- Photocopy from SECRET Gerald Ford Library NW 50955 DocId:32275454 Page 11”
“the Bureau with that infor 00 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 mation has been providing information over a number of years, O. but no one has made a study of information in hindsight in no B O order to evaluate that source. Do And I could go into m”
“S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 great deal of deciphered material. So it was kicked back 19 and forth, and there was a determination made that we would 20 take it over, the staff would take it over in its entirety. % 21 w J liin k ite e r-to b ie And therefore, it meant ”
“during the years 1959 to 63 to debrief such individuals. Is 22 that correct? 13 i Mr. Tovar. Insofar as I understand it. My knowledge is‘ 24 i limited to what I see here before me in the paper. During this: 35 n period in question I was not involved, so I didn’t know what”
“harkening back 22 ! to what I said a little while ago, I do believe that our 23 : organization was made up of, like Bill Colby has on the cover of his book over there on the next table, of honorable men, 25 : and I do not think that anyone in the organization would have ”
“told me of any reaction of 22 it. 23 Mr. Smothers. Do you recall the substance of his 24 comment regarding the 1967 McCone report? 25 Mr. Bundy. No. I don’t think he commented on it. He TOP SECRET NW 50955 Docrd-”
“191 It was not presented to him in the way that the Agency 20 wanted him to do it. 21 The Chairman. How valuable do you think this information 22 is to the Committee? I’ll tell you my concern. My concern is 23 I the one thing I have feared more than anything else, . in th”
“22 Then let me show you a document which we will mark as 23 Halley Exhibit No. 2. 24 (The document referred 25 to was marked Halley TOP SECRET”
“your testimony. As I came in you 23 were saying that orders came from somewhere to get off your 24 ass. Mr. Halpern. Yes, sir. Mr.Bissell told Mr.sZogbey, 25 TOP SECRET HW 50955 DocId: 32281927 Page 8”
“23 interference and this type of thing. 24 Q For how long a period did these debriefings go on? 25 SECRET I Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library NW 50955 DocId: 32275454 Page 62”
“Radio Liberty? nA <*± A Oh, yes. 4i0 i 25 ( Q Was anything of that nature done in connection with ) SECRET Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library NW 50955 DocId: 32275454 Page 31”
“with Frank Sturgis, Frank Fiorini? 24 Mr. Sarno. Never, never. To my knowledge, he never worked 25 for us. HW 50955 DocId:3 202440 Page 14 TO D SECDET”
“4 1 0 F irs t S tre e t, S .E ., W a s h in g to n , D .C . 2 0 0 0 3 doing that, but he wanted me to think about this because he 20 thought it was absolutely essential to safegard the currency 21 and all that. 22 I had made Well, this came as a great surprise to me. 23 ”