“me $ o "s la w 1 TOP SECRET. a Sl, 2 Phrine (Area 202) 544-6000 a 1 The Chairman. The hearing will please come to order. 2 Mr. Bundy, would you please stand and take the oath. 7600003044 3 Do you swear that the testimony you will give in this 4 hearing will be”
“McGEORGE BUNDY Me reported to the rest of the NSC EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE merely that three telegrams S W sent to Saigon: a personal message to LODGE from the PRESIDENT, a general message from the DEPARTMENT to the AMBASSADOR, and a telegram from TAYLOR to HARKINS. (11) (This is”
“begin cb-l8 11san.”5 TOP SECRET Phone (Area 202) 544- Mr. Smothers. Did you discuss with him. or did he raise with you specifically, the fact that he had received from 6! Mr. McCone a memorandum from Mr. McCone In 1967? 4 Mr. Bundy. Yes, he told me that. 5 Mr. Smothers”
“I, Phone(Area202)544-6000 TOP SECRET 10es2‘ 1 time I- was in Washington. I talked to him much less -- I can’t 2 give you a number— on these intervening matters. And that is 5 the distinction I am trying to make. 4 Senator MOrgan. You were something between himself and ”
“Y. 25 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 1 their more sensitive intelligence operations, were meticulous I 2 in that respect. 5 Now, I clearly am wrong. But that is what I would have 4 told you. 5 Senator Mondale. Well, are you wrong? 6 In other words, what you testified to --”
“This 18 subject was far out of my mind, and I would not have brought 4 1 0 F irst S tre e t, S .E .. W a sh in g to n , D .C . 20003 19 it up. I doubt that anyone wouldhave brought it to 20 me in those early days. 21 The Chairman. May I interrupt for a moment. 22 As I ”
“**********RSSXMI2W TOP SECRET 14 1 My own impression as to this matter -- and I have already 2 testified to the fact that I am relying on a recollection of a meeting of which there is no record -- is that had I been 4 briefed on this essentially hypothetical internal, und”
“19 encouraged to undertake such an explanation. 20 Mr. Schwarz. And .did you encourage him? 21 Mr. Bundy. The exact form of our message to him, or our 22 if you want to call it, the instruction to him, the President's! 23 decision, I can no longer recollect, but my impres”
“Phone (Area202) 544 TOP SECRET 18’ 90 whited out. Do you remember seeing those? Do Mr. Bundy. Yes. Mr. Schwarz. Do they refresh your recollection? 10 Mr. Bundy. No. They give me no they do not persuade me. I simply don’t from that suddenly have any flash, so and On ”
“iW*****R*T*EPOMoos TOP "heerort,, - n’. SECRET H Le 75.9 Phone (Area 202) 5 4 4 -6 0 0 0 '©9 9 0 1 Now, are you able to testify with respect to the likeli- 2 hood of the conversation you have recounted taking place , 3 prior to the 25th or the 26th of January 1961. ”
“iag-Ccovsenedrar TOP SECRET ■27 202) 544-6000 1 subject coming up or being discussed? 2 Mr. Bundy, I don’t recollect the meeting. And I 3 don't recollect the subject ever coming up in a meeting of 4 that size, or indeed in any — I don’t have any recollection 5 of it c”
“Ms TOP SECRET 16■ Phone (A ru 202) 5*4-6000 1 House authority, I know from the context -- my own concept 2 of my job what I would have done. © The Chairman. What would you have done? 4 Mr. Bundy, I would have had to take the matter to the 5 President, because had no ind”
“22 TOP SECRET 8 Tone 56 (25“e” hana. % Ose S 2 1. told me what it said. Phone(Area202) 2 Mr. Smothers. With regard to your conversation with 5 Mr. McCone, when did this occur, approximately? ddantoilnm 4 Mr. Bundy. That occurred earlier on. 5 Mr. Smothers. Befo”
“'eesAe^^Mr tff 1 TOP SECRfT 12 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 1 fact is that you were given a briefing, and you didn't urge it, 2 but on the other hand you didn't say it should stop. Sett. 5 How can you explain, if you can, the testimony of your 4 friend Mr. Bissell, and t”
“TOP SECRET Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 33335 42 1 it didn't depend on anybody else’s notes or anybody else’s 2 refreshing his recollection. , : ' Mr. Bundy. That, he didn't say, to me, and I have no way 4 of ■ commenting on it. 5 The Chairman. I think we must carefully ”
“I ass TOP SECRET: 0a 1tfr/i 5) *62 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 1 see if there has been any effort at collusion or whatever. 2 but merely to give us some guidelines in looking at the 3 record. 4 Do you recall, Mr. Bundy, from these conversations that 5 we have just men”
“i Phone (A rs a 2 0 2 ) 5 4 4 - 4 0 0 0 ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ "TOP SECRET Y ',82 1 Mr. Schwarz. But you have no independent recollection 2 of that or of the fact that Mr. Schultz met with the President? 3 Mr. Bundy. No. But I will say this and it is a random 4 observation if I we”
“00 92*9*6*9EM7#,*XEpl1'1 a TOP SECRET 19 g Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 no 1 truthfulness, or that the CIA was running wild, and acting on © 2 its own initiative, engaging in murder plots, murder attempts, and not informing, let alone securing the authority from, 4 t”
“he did. I know that he 22 met often and intimately and easily -with the Director of 23 Central Intelligence, who was a close personal friend of his. 0 24 Senator Baker. You are speaking of Mr. McCone? 25 Mr. Bundy. Mr. McCone. TOP SECRET NW 50955 "Doc”
“TOP SECRET 97 61 Phone (Area 202) 54460000 1 (Off the record.);." 2 Mr. Smothers. . This quite frankly, Mr. Bundy, this ana 3 related to an ancillary matter that is of concern to the 4 Committee. 5 You mentioned conversations with Mr. Schlesinger. Again, 6 were th”
“TOP SECRET 23 1 of the high sensitivity of the subject matter, no written 'records were kept, and it was not discussed at open meetings. J That is generally what was said. And it seems to me that is |implying, then, that as a matter of policy there was no ! formalization”
“1 , wpkrsnlveorb.vor 49 X, K,3CA* STOP SECRET T i 41 158 Phone A w 202} 544-6000 1 lack. 1 Mr. Smothers. Okay. 9 Just one final series of questions. 3 If we might, Mr. Bundy, go back to our conversations 4 regarding your request to see documents prior to your te”
“1.5 Go*sA--Vavainilte •14 3 *-3 •, 514 TOP SECRET 30T %that th CX t ht .116 155 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 38 5 1 1962? de 2 Mr. Bundy. I didn't say that. I said I had no independent PS 3 recollection of them. 4 Mr. Smothers. They did not come to your atten”
“‘ ch 30, Wl, ’ ,5 % TOP SECRET *144. 43P % -*--- 3-8 id 84 . Phone(Area202)544-6009. 1 . Mr. Bundy. As far as I recollect 2 Mr. Smothers. And by your documents, : I mean documents 5 . signed by you? 4 Mr. Bundy. They wouldn't be all signed by me, not 5 every NSMA wa”
“W TOP SEC RET pel a*W **** Phone (Area 202) 5 4 4 -6 0 0 0 5 37 1 o 54/12 would be available in a decision to the staff officer G 2 servicing the Special Group Augmented. But the decision-making 3 persons are simply a smaller number of the very people 4 that both”
“.C . 2 0 0 0 3 19 uals, never to me that I can recall by the President. But 20 it did come up’. 21 Mr. Schwarz. And it may have come up in this period in 22 the fall of 1961 as something to consider, is that correct? 23 Mr. Bundy. As something to talk about rather than ”
“Smothers. Did the White House male the selection f documents for you? vr. Bundy. No. The White House handled me a file of documents which covered the period. Mr. Smotrers. They handed you a f:‘e of documents cover.g rouchly the August 1962 period? TOP SECRET 8”
“ashington, D .C . 20003 19 signed to say that anyone specifically told him that, but 20 that he talked to Robert Kennedy frequently about it. Would 21 this be in the gingerman concept you are speaking of? 22 Mr. Bundy. Now we are right at the specific point I 23 Iwould ”
“looking at. 21 { Mr. Schwarz. And in connection with that, was his being 22 'killed by assassination one of the ways which you understood 23 ‘ he might be killed? 24 Mr. Bundy. I don't have any recollection of that point,. 25 of it being on our minds. TOP SECRET 106”
“full recollection of the subject of Executive Action in the 01 ^I early 1961? 22 Mr. Bundy. Would it help if I try to describe in a 23 general way what I now understand of this matter, the 24 part which is recollection and the part which is clarified 25 by discussions w”
“1 ‘s. TOP SECRET e r 2 53 1 Mr. Smothers, I was about to pursue that line,: Phone (Area 202) 2 Senator Mondale. 3 Senator Mondale. Go ahead. 4 Mr. Smothers. I believe you indicated previously, Mr. 5 Bundy, that you talked to Mr. Bissell, Mr. McNamara, Mr. McCone,”
“1 OP SECRET +98 5% Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 T+y 1119* '' 4,-1 h 1 Mr. Bundy. Well, yes. There are a great many things that 2 enter into my judgment about whether the President or the 3 Attorney General wouldeever have done that, and I would like 4 to say, Mr. Chairman”
“it am39903haretyaye-t-DoP- TOP SECRET t $09 - "StOre t wAT’KG-Ay )R3 Were %59 * Phone (Area 202) .1 2 "White House Staff showed me the documents. . Mr. Smothers.. The White House Staff showed you the 5 documents? 4 Mr. Bundy. Yes. 5 Mr., Smothers. Under what ci”
“14-00000 ( 1 25 November 1963 MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD SUBJECT: Discussion with President Johnson, November 23rd, about 9:15 a.m. The conversation lasted approxi mately 15 minutes. 1. The President entered Mr. Bundy's office alone and no one was present during th”
“Soseve, Till CRET R bedlroonn Bare-r-ohes 51 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 1 so and so work?" 2 Mr. Bundy. If I may correct that, I said he prodded me 3 from time to time, not all the time. 4 Senator Morgan. Quite frequently?. 5 Mr. Bundy. I wouldn’t put it that often. It”
“TOP SECRET ■22 1 actions were discussed in the Special Group. And as your Committee pursues its studies of covert action it will find I; that that group is the nodal point for policy decisions, good। ; : or bad, well or badly handled. And that was quite a small 5: group”
“al TOP SECRET 29 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 1 Do you recall that there was not? 2 Mr. Bundy. I Can only speak for myself here, and for 5 my colleague Rostow, and my knowledge of his assignments. 4 I recall that his assignments would have made it wildly out 5 of place, and ”
“rop grepET } tea S TOP SECRET wee Phone (Area 202) 544-6000./V& t&tu 38 1 Mr. Smothers Mr. Rusk?e* 2 Mr. Bundy. Yes. 3 Mr. Smothers. Mr. McCone? &a£&&2ft&&£&^^ 4 Mr. Bundy. Yes. 5 Mr. Smothers. Are there others? 6 ■ Mr. Bundy. .I am sure there are. Mr. Rostow”
“TOP SECRET 3’31 phone (Area 202) 544-6000 1 Mr. Bundy, I don't--think the President ever acted Ian 2 Fleming. 3 Senator Baker. I think that is right. But I think it 4 is important for us, Mr. Bundy, to try to establish, as the 5 Chairman said, the range of available inform”
“Bundy that Memorandums of Conversation with Heads of State should be distributed to me automatically. Also that the State Department be instructed to send such Memorandums to me. The President agreed. NOTE: This should be followed up by Mr. Cline. Bundy will apparently disc”
“ch 31 TOP SECRET worsewtCh-C-pe AP85 Phone (Area 2021 544-6000 Mr. Schwarz. So your records are, with respect to to persons asking about-- Gt Mr. Bundy. Or talking about. Mr. Schwarz. or talking about assassination, that did occur, that it probably occurred on more ”
“given to be 21 expressed as to the possibility that the Russians were moving 22 into Cuba -- moving missiles into Cuba. You have on the 23 J memorandum, I think, "USSR will put missiles”. Do you recall 24 what you meant by that? 25 Mr. Bundy. I think what that is, a han”
“a 44. 0 N ' 1« TOP SECRET: 6 0 0 0 ′0 60 tre e Phone 1Ar», 202) 344 1 The Chairman. What is the question?'" 2 Mr . Smothers. ■ The question is who in the White House provided Mr. Bundy with documents relevant to this investigation. C o fh rl 5 4 And I belie”
“own image. Too often. he observed, when the United States became involved in the affairs of another country, it felt an obligation to reform the country . along American lines. This, he said, was a mistake. He himself was anxious to get on with winning the war; he did not wan”
“TOP SECRET 1o’ 577 44 * P hone (A re a 2 0 2 ) 5 4 4 1 Mr. Bundy. He had not seen the report in 1975. But 2 since itsis a report that as I understand it, it is 5 report that he made in 1967, and he had seen it then. 4 Mr. Smothers. Did he indicate to you that he was. 5”
“TOP SECRET As to the Board’sestudy, Mr. Bundy told.Dr. Killian that. ,40 the Board should include in its"review discussions with the :7,9 Secretaries of State and Defense and the Chairman of the Joint. .. Chiefs of Staff — Mr. Bundy ind: cating that the Secretary of ., , Defense”
“FL F- * ■ TOP SECRET th e 8 162 aaa 3* Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 ’'45 1 me and it was clear, in that .sense, that I had become responsi- 2 ble for knowing what was in the document, but I have to say that 5 as I reread it I have no recoilaction that I ever, in fact, ”
“Mr. Smothers. Can you give the Committee the sense of 23 your conversations with Mr. McNamara? 24 Mr. Bundy. There have been a number of them. Mr. McNamara and I not only have been close friends, but are very 25 TOP SECRET HW 50955 bocra:”
“330 TOP SECRI ■099 152" Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 -55 1 Going back to an earlier memorandum which I don’t believe .20X82140 dent . . 2 is in the Bundy materials, but it has been talked about 3 previously in a Committee hearing, a memorandum which will be 4 identified”
“ashington, D .C . 20003 m had been told by the United States that it was prepared to % o 2G I provide them with a limited supply of arms and equipment. h w 21 When you got such information, did it trigger in your mind 22 ; anything to the effect of, let’s be concerne”